Shaping Seattle | Shireen and Jeremy Discuss Chronic Homelessness and the Third Door Coalition

“It costs the same to provide one full year permanent supportive housing, including all the wraparound services and support as it does to pay for three months in County jail, or three days at Harborview our local hospital. Three days at Harborview. That is crazy.” -Jeremy Schifberg

[Shaping Seattle is a podcast that highlights the work of Seattle Shapers and other local impact leaders in the greater Seattle area. In our third episode of Shaping Seattle, our very own Shireen Tabrizi and Jeremy Schifberg talk chronic homelessness, permanent supportive housing, and the power of storytelling and cultural change.

Jeremy Schifberg works on improving healthcare delivery — which means he works on homelessness, food insecurity, and many other issues found outside of a clinic or hospital. He found himself working on homelessness — one of Seattle’s most divisive and challenging issues — because of its unavoidable connection to good health. Now, he and fellow Shaper Shireen work in support of the Third Door Coalition, one of Seattle’s most promising new initiatives dedicated to addressing chronic homelessness. You can find Jeremy on LinkedIn, Twitter, and The Third Door Coalition

Passionate about addressing inequities of all kinds, the host, Shireen Tabrizi, loves herself some structural and systemic change. She also likes to talk politics, both national and hyper-local, and stays engaged with her community. Find her on LinkedIn]

Episode 3 | Chronic Homelessness and the Third Door Coalition (Recorded: October 29th, 2020)

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:00:24] Jeremy, welcome to the pod.

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:00:26] Thank you.

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:00:28] I’d love to start with some intros on who we are, why we’re here, and what we’re passionate about in life.

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:00:35] My name is Jeremy Schifberg. I’m a native Pacific Northwester. I grew up in Oregon, did my time in Chicago and Boston, and finally made it back out to this neck of the woods, which is definitely home. I work in health and healthcare. So, my work is at the intersection of the traditional health care sector and community health. So specifically I do work around driving investment in things called the social determinants of health. So things like, stable housing and access to healthy food and well-paying jobs, those kinds of things framed as the health care issues that they are.

But of course, traditionally we’ve drawn the boundaries of healthcare in a way that excludes those things. So that’s, that’s what my work is about. And I’m excited to be here with you talking about some work around chronic homelessness. But Shireen, I feel like, I don’t think you can get off the hook on this one either.

I think you should probably introduce yourself as well.

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:01:24] So my name is Shireen. I originally grew up in Austin, Texas, proud Austinite living in Seattle now for almost 10 years. I love many things about the Pacific Northwest. I just wish we had better Mexican food or really, I should say TexMex.

I am really passionate about addressing the many inequities that we have in the world, particularly through systemic change. And I’ve worked at a variety of different nonprofits, passionate about a lot of different issue areas. So I don’t know if I could pinpoint any one in particular, but, lately have been working in the philanthropy space in the Seattle area.

Our first question that I want to start with, since we are here to talk about chronic homelessness and how those issues can be addressed in different ways in the Seattle area and really across the United States. I’m wondering how you became passionate about the issue of chronic homelessness or, how did you get to caring about this issue?

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:02:25] For me in truth, I initially came to the issue through work. Like I mentioned, I started my career working in healthcare in the more traditional healthcare sector. And over the last handful of years, it’s become more increasingly mainstream to recognize the fact that housing is healthcare.

That there’s a profound connection between stable housing and good health. And I mean that’s something that’s been known to the public health community and lots of other folks for decades, of course, but, traditional healthcare is slow to catch up often. And so that’s something that’s become increasingly part of the mainstream conversation in healthcare.

And so something I became involved in through work was the healthcare sector's investment in housing and affordable housing, specifically as a healthcare intervention. That’s kinda how I came to the issue initially, but then you know I moved to Seattle. I was working on these issues elsewhere, because my work was primarily on the East Coast and it became increasingly difficult, frankly, to reconcile the fact that I would walk to a coffee shop every day to get my coffee. Homelessness is a big issue in the Seattle area and my neighborhood is no exception and it just felt untenable to walk by my neighbors who were living unhoused to return to my desk and work on those issues somewhere else. And so I think that’s what caused me to want to find a way to get involved here locally.

The Seattle Times and Seattle University have done a lot of really amazing work around homelessness in the community. And I went to a couple of events that they put on that were just storytelling events to listen to folks who had experienced homelessness or were experiencing homelessness tell their stories.

It is always super powerful to hear folks share their stories. And I think, it’s the best thing that you can do, at least certainly was for me. So it was hard not to walk out of those rooms and not want to get involved somehow in the issue.

Actually, I promise not to turn the tables on every single question Shireen, but we’ve gotten the chance to work together on this now for some time. And I actually don’t know the answer for you. So I’m curious, what brought you to this issue?

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:04:17] Yeah. Good question. I think your answer is a little bit similar to my reason as well. Living in Seattle, it’s just really impossible to ignore the scale of the problem here, of homelessness and in particular chronic homelessness, the more visible kind of homelessness that we see where typically people who are struggling with addiction, have a disability, or have some sort of chronic issue that makes it even more difficult to be housed or to find housing that meets their needs really.

For me growing up in Texas, I didn’t see homelessness in the same way that I saw it here. And I feel it’s continued to get worse in Seattle in some ways, or maybe it just appears visibly worse. And I think I just wanted to know more about what was being done about it, who the players in this space were in Seattle, what the government was doing. And came to find out there’s so much work being done. The problem really is this lack of affordable housing and that’s maybe something we can get into on another day. But, I think we’re really lucky to live in a place that has so much expertise around this issue and is really leading the nation in a lot of ways.

You mentioned housing being a really essential part of healthcare. And I think Seattle in a lot of ways has recognized that with the housing first model that we use here, meaning you get someone housed first before you address all of their other needs. So I think I’ve learned a lot from the way that this issue is being addressed in this city.

And I think it’s, a big enough issue that there is a role for everyone to play. Similar to you, I just felt like it was something that I couldn’t ignore, and something that has solutions that can be put into place that truly work. What was most promising and interesting for me to learn is that it’s not an unsolvable problem.

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:06:08] Yeah, I think that last point is so important. Like it’s so easy for us. I think, to fall into our camps or to look at these big, hairy social issues and convince ourselves that nothing can be done, but this is one of those areas where there really are evidence-based solutions. And I think reminding ourselves that this is not some intrinsic part of society is really important. So anyway, love that piece.

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:06:29] So I’d love to take us now to, the thing that connected us around this issue of chronic homelessness, which is the Third Door Coalition. I’m wondering if you can just tell me a little bit about who they are and how they came to be for those that may not know.

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:06:45] Yeah, definitely. So The Third Door Coalition is a civic alliance of folks who come from the private sector, so business leaders in the community around King County, academic leaders from the area, and some of the leading service providers. Like you mentioned, Seattle is nationally known for being a hub of innovation around solutions to address homelessness. And so a couple of the nation’s leading service providers are here in Seattle and they are represented as part of this group.

You know, you referenced how it came to be. I think it’s an interesting story. So the Third Door Coalition was born out of the head tax debate that took place a couple of years ago here in Seattle, which was around taxing large businesses and having some of those funds go towards affordable housing.

Obviously it’s part of a larger story that’s probably not unique to Seattle around what the right relationship is between large corporate entities and the communities in which they’re headquartered, specifically you know around housing. And I think the issue at the time was that there were some folks in the business community who felt like they were always against everything and they wanted to be for something.

And they identified homelessness as an issue where there was some shared alignment with folks who maybe were coming at the issue from the academic side. Maybe the two groups wouldn’t agree on lots of other things, but, they identified homelessness as one area where they could agree.

And, uh, one of the co-chairs of the Third Door Coalition, Sarah Rankin who is a law professor at Seattle University, was doing a local media tour following the head tax debate. Chad MacKay the other co-founder of the Third Door Coalition I believe heard her speak.

They got connected and basically said, “Hey, we all have a vested interest in solving this issue. Let’s focus on chronic homelessness specifically on permanent supportive housing as an evidence-based solution to that issue. And let’s allow that laser focus to help us cut through the noise and just stay focused on this one area that we can agree on and works towards solutions together.”

That’s how it came to be. It’s a unique kind of all-volunteer coalition. Like I said earlier, there are plenty of areas maybe where folks in the group may disagree on other things, but when it comes to permanent supportive housing as a solution to chronic homelessness, that’s the perspective that the group shares.

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:08:52] You mentioned something that I want to pull out a little bit more about coming together to really focus on chronic homelessness. And, I know the way that they want to do that is through providing permanent supportive housing, scaling up the stock of permanent supportive housing in this region. But for those that may not know can you tell us a little bit about what exactly that means? What is permanent supportive housing?

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:09:16] The population of folks who are living homeless is made up of a bunch of different, maybe subpopulations, right? And chronic homelessness is of those groups. And so folks are considered chronically homeless if they’ve been homeless for an extended period of time and they have a disability that prevents them from maintaining work — so a population that has a lot of really significant challenges and oftentimes a population that’s one of the more visible kinds of homeless communities in an area. And it’s a challenging population, but we do have solutions to your point earlier, right? Permanent supportive housing is the one for which there’s the best evidence.

It is a part of that Housing First model that you alluded to earlier. The idea is: it’s a permanent home where folks are surrounded by wraparound services onsite to support physical and behavioral health needs. Residents do pay rent as able and it’s not conditioned on anything and it’s not temporary, which are I think are two really critical aspects of the model.

And it works much more effectively than others interventions that have been tested for the chronically homeless population. The challenge is that it is expensive to build and it takes time to build. But the good news is that there’s a lot of here in King County, and there’s a lot of leading developers and service providers here in King County because I think at the last count there were over 6,000 folks living chronically homeless in Seattle King County.

That’s less than a third, if I remember my numbers right, of the total homeless population, but they represent a majority of the public cost. And we can talk about this more later, but it turns out it’s much less expensive to house someone than it is to maintain homelessness in the community.

And permanent supportive housing is one of the ways to best ways to house someone and keep folks housed.

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:10:49] Yeah, I think that’s a really interesting tidbit that many people may not know. So I think that segues nicely into what I’d like to talk about next, which is your work, our work together really, with the Ambassador Program within the Third Door Coalition and how that is intended to be a tool to get out this kind of information to the public.

So can you tell me a little bit about what the Ambassador Program is and how you and I got involved with it?

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:11:18] I was about to say definitely our work Shireen. So I should probably say also that we initially got connected to the Third Door Coalition through a connection within the Seattle Global Shapers hub. One of our colleagues had gotten connected to the organization right around when it first came into being. That’s how we got connected to the group. And similarly, the inspiration for the Ambassador Program that we’ve been working on, comes from Shapers as well. Basically, the idea is that you and I are working to design what we’ve been calling the ambassador Program for this group, the Third Door Coalition.

The idea came from a couple of our colleagues who had come back from a Climate Reality training, which has this model where they basically train a whole bunch of folks all over the globe, to become, I wouldn’t even say, having gone through the program, I wouldn’t say experts. Right. But to have a shared kind of baseline knowledge of the facts around climate change, and then they arm them with a bunch of support and tools to be ambassadors on the issue out in their communities. They arm them with a pitch deck and slides and talking points and data, and helpful nudges over email, I can speak from firsthand experience. To get them out, basically spreading the word around climate change in a fact-based way. And so as we were talking to some of the board members at the Third Door Coalition, it became clear at the time we had moved on as Seattle, we weren’t talking about the head tax anymore, but we were talking about Mandatory Housing Affordability legislation in the community which was similarly a divisive conversation. It was driving a lot of inbound interest, good and bad, frankly, to organizations like Third Door that had been out there publicly saying that they do work around homelessness. And so there was a lot of latent energy in the community who were reaching out to the Third Door Coalition who wanted to help.

But at the time the Third Door Coalition was still doing some work around identifying ways to bring down the cost of development of permanent supportive housing, on sizing the issue in the community. They didn’t have a lot of natural places to to direct eager volunteers, but, of course, that energy was a really terrible thing to waste.

I think there is also a recognition that the reporting on this issue sometimes is set up to fail because prevention isn’t reported and things like permanent supportive housing are our interventions and, in some ways, they’re designed to prevent more escalated issues in a community.

So, you know, we approached the Third Door Coalition and say, Hey, there’s this model that works in this other space. We can design an Ambassador Program with you as a way to harness some of that latent energy in the community and direct it in a more productive way.

We can have more people who are out serving as informal spokespeople for this issue out in their communities — in their workplaces, at their dinner tables, at their neighborhood meetings — Just having a more productive dialogue about homelessness, right? A dialogue that’s based on the facts.

That’s evidence-based and could maybe bring down maybe the level of heat on the issue that was developing in the community and bring up the level of discussion around solutions. So we’ve spent, quite a bit of time over the last year, I guess, working with the Third Door Coalition to design a program to mobilize that energy, grow a constituent constituency of folks who are engaged really productively on this issue, and grow support for permanent supportive housing.

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:14:12] I think you touched on a couple of reasons why the Third Door Coalition might be appealing to people in general and why they might want to join something like an Ambassador Program to help get the word out about it. You touched on something sort of tangential to this, but I also think the role of government, in the issue of chronic homelessness in general, has been for a variety of reasons both praised and criticized and very strongly on both sides.

Ranging from the zoning issue that you brought up, the MHA that was going on when we found out about Third Door, to how much money is spent on this issue and to new taxes. Everything is contentious. I think another interesting part about the Third Door Coalition, inherent in all of this is that it’s not government, it doesn’t involve government necessarily directly.

So obviously the members of Third Door and the coalition, in general, are working with, government officials at various levels. But, really it’s a bunch of nonprofit leaders, business leaders coming together to address this issue.

And I think that’s something that’s really appealing to people right now as well, which, for better, or for worse is the way that it is right now. And I think in a time in the United States where there’s declining trust in government, the Third Door presents a really unique and appealing solution to a lot of people as well. Could you talk to me a little bit more about your work with the Ambassador Program and what that looks like in practice? Anything you’ve learned along the way or any challenges that have sprung up in working with the community in this kind of capacity.

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:15:51] So I’d say the number one challenge that comes to mind as we’ve been diving into this work, and I’m certainly interested in your thoughts as well Shireen, is just that this is an all-volunteer coalition, ourselves included.

It’s just more challenging, I think, to keep the momentum up, there’s a monthly board meeting, and you can make as much progress as you can between those. One might get canceled for any one of a number of reasons, and then there’s, there can be a big gap between when you’re connecting with folks within the coalition.

So that’s certainly a bit of a challenge. The other challenge I’d say is just harnessing the energy where I think we’re really fortunate to live in a community where there is a ton of passion around this issue and a lot of eager volunteers. But it has been difficult, I think, to stay patient as we’ve been trying to build this program and get it ready to launch in some sort of formal sense, because people are continuing to come to the table, really eager to help wanting to put their skills and energy to work.

And we don’t always have a great way, today to direct that energy, right? The answer for us might be, we really need your help kind of tracking inbound inquiries into the coalition, or we really need your help finalizing this slide that kind of paints the remaining picture of the design of this program or which isn’t always the number one way that people want to get involved.

So I think just staying patient and focused on the work at hand in the context of a lot of eagerness and passion for this issue is it’s a good problem to have, but it’s been a little challenging. And then related to that, just meeting folks where they are. We’ve had a lot of folks who’ve come wanting to work on this with us or help, who come from very different backgrounds, have different experience with this issue.

Some folks are passionate, but don’t have a lot of familiarity with the issue. Other folks who are true experts in this space. And so finding a way to work with that full group and frankly design a program that works for people who fit descriptions across that spectrum of experience and expertise has been a little bit of a challenge, but a good one, I think.

I think if I’d say if there’s one lesson that I’ve learned that I’m continuing to learn frankly every day it’s just to really be willing to ask for help directly, which is something I struggle with sometimes. I’ve just found time and time again that the folks we’ve been working with are so generous.

Both the board members at Third Door who are all themselves volunteers, as well as the potential ambassadors who’ve been working with us on designing this Ambassador Program. Folks have been so generous and eager to say yes, and step up whenever they’re asked to help on something.

And I just need to constantly remind myself that it’s okay to ask for help without feeling guilty about it. So those are the things that come to mind, but Shireen, I’m curious, how do you feel about that?

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:18:17] Yeah, I think you’re not alone in that at all. I would say that’s a lesson that I’ve learned as well. Each time that we have directly asked for help, we have gotten more than what we anticipated getting in return. I also think what you said earlier about people wanting to help in particular ways that may not be fitting to our needs or the needs of the organization is a classic nonprofit problem. As someone who’s worked with a lot of different nonprofits, there’s a lot of really eager, kind, well-intentioned people who want to help in some way, and then maybe are not as jazzed about the ways that you actually need them to help.

But then I think to your second point, if you ask those people for what you actually need, they most likely are going to say yes if they did want to help in the first place, even if they wanted maybe a more interesting volunteer opportunity than what you have to offer. They’re more than likely going to say yes if the issue is what’s really bringing them to you. I’m wondering also, now that we’re in the space, talking about lessons learned, if you want to share one or two things that have surprised you in your journey learning about chronic homelessness and permanent supportive housing. Are there any tidbits or pieces of information that you’d like to share with the audience that really has struck you?

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:19:39] Yeah. and I’m interested in your thoughts on this too Shireen. I’m always hesitant when talking about the issue of homelessness, to lead with like cold, hard data and facts, especially around costs because it’s such a profoundly human, and in my opinion, real moral kind of social issue more than it is one that constantly needs to be led with cold, hard data and numbers.

I will say that there is some data on this issue that’s really struck me, that I find both effective in communicating to different audiences, but that just is always stuck in my head. Namely just how, how expensive it is to not better address this issue in our community.

The fact that always sticks with me is that it costs the same to provide one full year of permanent supportive housing, including all the wraparound services and support as it does to pay for three months in County jail, or three days at Harborview our local hospital, three days at Harborview. That is crazy.

And it’s frankly just a real moral and ethical indictment that we continue to be okay with, in a lot of ways tacitly, a growing homelessness issue in our community when it’s both a moral failing and frankly, it’s expensive. It costs the public to maintain homelessness more than it does to solve the issue.

I don’t mean to suggest that this is an issue that’s easily solved, that it doesn’t take a significant amount of investment, that it doesn’t take a lot of time to develop permanent supportive housing units. But to your point earlier, it is solvable. And in the long run, if you take a holistic view of the costs, it is less expensive to solve it than it is to allow it to continue to grow. So I think that’s probably the number one thing that I’ve learned along the way that really sticks with me. And then maybe on the other side of the equation, the other thing that, frankly is a learning for me, especially as someone who came to this issue initially from a professional perspective is just how powerful each and every story that you get to hear from folks who’ve, who have lived experience with this issue is. You know, it’s a profoundly human issue, and I always feel like the best thing I can do is just listen to someone, tell their story about this. It’s impossible not to leave moved and to be reminded that this is something that really can happen to just about anyone. The causes of homelessness are often much more diverse than we may assume.

This is just a profoundly human issue. So you know, that’s the other piece. I think that always resonates with me and is a lesson. I think I, again, continue to learn.

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:21:55] Your point about storytelling is a really good one and there’s never too many stories in this kind of work. You don’t want to get too bogged down with the data and forget that they’re people that are driving that data right. I think your, first statistic that you shared was actually the one that struck me the most, that three days at Harborview is equivalent to an entire year in permanent supportive housing. That just blew my mind.

It also was really surprising to me how few providers there were of permanent supportive housing in Seattle, given how many non-profits there are at large working on homelessness. It was surprising to me that only five of the dozens of nonprofits working on homelessness were specifically working on chronic homelessness and specifically providing permanent supportive housing to that population.

So that’s really not very many. Literally you can name them on one hand and that means that given the needs that we have in this community to build more permanent supportive housing, that’s a lot of weight or pressure on those five organizations who are all excellent, who are doing excellent work and, as you mentioned before, are really leading the nation in this space. So Jeremy you also mentioned the ways in which prevention is much cheaper down the line than continuing to let the problem grow.

And, again, to this point of three days at Harborview being equivalent to a year of permanent supportive housing and cost. I wanna take us back to something that you said earlier about media and public conversation and the ways that we talk about this issue. I think that is really key that, I think your point earlier was that prevention is essentially not as interesting to talk about as the stories of the tents cropping up in certain places or the quote unquote “blight on our community” or the documentary about Seattle is dying that made national news.

In some ways, I had friends from other States texting me about how my city was dying. So I think that’s a really interesting point to parse out maybe a little bit more is this idea that prevention really is cost saving. And obviously it’s better for everybody in the long run, but it’s not funded.

It’s not sexy. It’s not what we talk about.

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:24:13] This is a really thorny one. And of course, certainly not unique to the homelessness space, right? As someone who comes from the healthcare world, we consistently struggle as a country when it comes to healthcare, to investing in prevention, and to investing ahead of return, when it comes to preventing long-term chronic illness. When it comes to prevention, I think part of the problem is that there’s often a wrong pocket issue, right?

So we can say truthfully that it’s a much lower cost to house and support someone for a year than it is to pay the cost of medical interventions or criminal justice interventions. That’s absolutely true. But of course, those sources of money sometimes come from different pockets. And so it’s hard to get everybody to come together around a solution when it’s not so clear, who’s paying and who’s bearing the cost.

It’s again a common kind of public good problem that exists in a lot of spaces. I think that’s one of the reasons why we were so interested in developing this Ambassador Program for the Third Door Coalition. A lot of the early focus of the Third Door Coalition was on the technical change: sizing the problem, identifying how many permanent supportive housing units we needed, identifying ways to bring the cost of construction down, so that we could build more efficiently, more quickly and more cheaply.

All of those things are absolutely critical but they also go hand in hand with a social or cultural change that we can’t lose sight of. All of those kinds of technical changes can only really happen or flourish in a context where culturally, we have a better understanding of this issue.

We have a better, more holistic understanding of exactly what you’re talking about Shireen, in terms of the cost of prevention versus the cost of not preventing and understanding where those costs are born as a society. That was part of the inspiration for wanting to design something like this Ambassador Program where we could work on that cultural change.

Have folks have a better baseline understanding of the facts around this issue, have more productive conversations about it, and then, naturally downstream, the hope would be when the next piece of legislation is on the table, when the next debate around zoning and your neighborhood is on the table, there’s a better recognition of what prevention looks like and how it shows up in the community and people can make a better-informed decision about what they want to support. I think that question around prevention is a really good one. I wish I had a perfect answer for it. That would certainly solve a lot of problems socially. But I think part of it has to be a recognition that alongside the technical change, which I think is something that’s often, we often get focused on rightfully, there needs to be a parallel cultural or social change, to really foster, the success of that technological change.

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:26:39] Yeah, I think that’s an excellent point and takes us very nicely into our next question. What can people do who live in Seattle who want to get connected to this issue, or maybe specifically to Third Door, to the Ambassador Program. How can someone tap into solving chronic homelessness?

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:26:59] Yeah, I feel like you and I should have an answer prepped at this point on this front, because we’ve been fortunate to have a lot of folks coming exactly what that question. So by all means, fill in any gaps that I leave here. But a handful of things come to mind. I think number one, this isn’t always the most satisfying answer for folks who want something super tangible to do today, but really just being human and warm, to people who are experiencing homelessness, smiling and remembering that the, just the humanity, is really critical. That’s something that, I’ve heard from service providers in this space, time and time again, that the number one thing everybody can do today, is to be kind to our neighbors who are experiencing homelessness. I would say that is number one.

Number two, we’ve mentioned a couple of times is, I really do think it helps to go listen to stories, right? They’re available online. There are events being held constantly, probably in every major community in the country. It is hard not to be moved and, I think it will spur you to further action. So that’s the number two thing I like to remind folks of, then, supporting our service providers, directly with the things that they need help on, whether it’s donations, whether it’s help putting food boxes together, whether it’s help setting up an apartment for a new permanent supportive housing development, that’s just been set up. DESC, the Downtown Emergency Service Center, and Plymouth Housing are two of the leading permanent supportive housing providers that you referenced earlier, that are on the board of the Third Door Coalition. They always have a need for folks who are eager to help. So going directly to those service providers is another thing.

And then the last two things I’ll say is just one, and this is part of the reason why we’re working on this Ambassador Program, is to really work to combat NIMBY-ism or Not In My Backyard-ism in your community. This is a challenging one. And certainly, I understand that. But oftentimes at the local level, one of the biggest barriers to change on this issue is often well-intentioned folks that are just uncomfortable with zoning changes or affordable housing being developed in their neighborhood. And that can be a real barrier. Just learning more about this issue and having more productive conversations with your neighbors, with your families. It goes a long way.

And then lastly, and Shireen, you made this point earlier, but I just want to emphasize it just, you can help by remembering that homelessness is not an intrinsic fact of modern society. It doesn’t have to be, it is addressable. We’ve seen functionally zero homelessness in certain communities in the country and within certain populations. It can be done. And just remembering that we get to choose what kind of community we want to have, we want to build and we want to support, and it doesn’t have to be this way.

This is that there are choices that we make that sustain or that address this issue.

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:29:30] Thank you, Jeremy and very well said. I just want to emphasize that all of the things that you’ve listed, I asked the question about Seattle, little Seattle centric over here, but all of those things can be done everywhere in this country.

So I just want to emphasize that these are behaviors, these are actions that people can take anywhere there is homelessness, which unfortunately is growing issue in a lot of places in the United States. I would just emphasize the importance of having conversations and speaking up when you hear misinformation and really correcting that, because I think a lot of what drives the NIMBY-ism that you mentioned is fear and fear of the unknown and stereotyping.

And I think if people understand that, for instance, in South Lake Union, there is some permanent supportive housing that I visited myself once and didn’t know that’s what it was for years. So there is permanent supportive housing in communities and people don’t know it’s there because it doesn’t change anything.

I think that’s really important to understand is that actually, if people are housed and have the services that they need, which are part of permanent supportive housing, there’s staff there 24/7, you won’t notice a difference in your neighborhood. You won’t notice a change other than perhaps less homelessness, which you know, is great for everyone.

I just want to emphasize the importance of connecting one-to-one and having conversations with everyone in your life about this that may not feel the same way.

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:30:56] Hey Preach!

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:30:57] So we’re going to pivot here now and get into some lightning-round questions. Are you ready, Jeremy? We can go back and forth with these.

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:31:07] I was about to say, I am ready, but you are definitely not getting off the hook on these. So I hope you’re ready.

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:31:11] I came prepared to answer these as well as ask them. So first we’re going to start with what book or author has struck your fancy lately? What are you reading or following in the literature world?

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:31:24] I am reading Sapiens right now, consistent with my track record of being like three years behind whatever the hot book is. And it is so far excellent. So Shireen, what book or author are you reading today?

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:31:35] I was wondering, where are you going to ask me this question? Or do I have to answer my own answer? I have been reading a book that I’m really enjoying right now. it’s called the Death of Vivek Oji. I hope I’m not mispronouncing the author’s name, but Akwaeke Emezi is the author Nigerian author, perhaps Nigerian and another nationality, I’m not sure. But the book is really excellent, would highly recommend it. My next question for you, what leader are you looking up to right now?

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:32:03] That is a tough one. I think that the first thing that comes to mind, there are a lot of leaders I’m not looking up to right now. The first thing that comes to mind is, I’m just, I’m lucky to work with some folks who are so generous with their time and their support and who make a point to encourage people, to be people over workers.

My gut reaction to this question is I am looking up to a couple of current and former colleagues who are real models to me for leadership and how I want to be and how they make me feel how I’d want to make other people feel. So that’s who comes to mind. Shireen here comes a surprise.

Which leader are you looking up to right now?

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:32:39] Mine’s maybe a little bit less unique. My answer is AOC, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. I just think she’s a really inspiring leader and she’s been giving me a lot of motivation in these challenging times. How much sleep are you getting Jeremy?

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:32:57] Thanks for asking. These days, eight hours almost religiously. I spent a lot of my adult life so far being chronically sleep-deprived, but I read the book Why We Sleep, a year ago and it scared me straight. So I am really making an effort to sleep eight hours a night. And, can’t recommend it highly enough if you can swing it.

Speaking, of Shireen, how much sleep are you getting?

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:33:18] I have to say I’m a big fan of sleep but I don’t always put that into practice as well as I’d like, so eight is always the aspiration. I’d say realistically like six and a half seven, but I feel like I’m getting better. I have the whole bedtime alarm set on my phone and all of that, using technology to guide me.

Jeremy, if there was a genie that could grant you one wish, what would it be?

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:33:44] One wish, I would go with, let’s say universal kindness, wisdom and health. Maybe that’s three, but I’m just going to go with it. I feel like if everybody was able to access those three things, I dunno, I’d owe that genie a big one. Shireen.

That genie’s got room in his or her heart for one more wish, what would you want it to be?

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:34:02] Well it would be great if we could actually have both of these met, because then I think the world would just be, a lot of our problems would be solved. So my wish is that the genie would eliminate poverty and ensure everyone’s basic needs are met. So I might’ve also cheated and chosen two, but I feel like the basic needs being met, follows the elimination of poverty so I’m going to put them together.

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:34:23] Yeah, I think the genie will allow it.

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:34:25] What are you most grateful for today?

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:34:27] I am grateful to have a family and loved ones close by. I’m always grateful for this, and especially grateful for it now, having this conversation in the middle of the pandemic and while it’s certainly more challenging than usual, still the ability to quarantine and then be able to drive and see family and loved ones has been, just really critical and sustaining for me, over those last handful of months.

So I’m very grateful for that. Shireen, what are you most grateful for today?

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:34:55] Yeah, that’s a good one. Connection is important these days. I am most grateful to have my basic needs met. So the genie, has already visited me and I feel lucky to be in that position and hopefully he can, he/she/they can make that happen for everyone.

I’ll be waiting. So that was our final lightning round question. Jeremy, how can people find you?

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:35:19] I do not, unfortunately, have a very robust social media presence, but, LinkedIn or I suppose Twitter, these days. Just @ my name, Jeremy Schifberg, are probably the best bets. and then would also just encourage folks if you’re interested in any of the things that we discussed to check out ThirdDoorCoalition.org, where they’ve just got a bunch of good resources about the organization, but just about the issue and chronic homelessness writ large.

So lots of good stuff there. Shireen, what about you?

Shireen Tabrizi: [00:35:43] We’ll include some links for people to reference to some of the things that we mentioned. Yeah. I am also on LinkedIn. I’m not going to advertise my Twitter because it’s mostly my angry partisan political rants, but you’re welcome to try to find me. I have a pseudonym. Anyone that finds me I’ll make you some cookies because that would be impressive. Jeremy, I just want to thank you for your time and thanks everyone for listening. And hope this was as enjoyable for you as it was for me.

Jeremy Schifberg: [00:36:13] Yeah, thanks Shireen! This was fun. Looking forward to continuing working with you.